- M. Höhne
- Key Master
Offline - From: Maine
- Registered: 14-3-2013
- Posts: 637
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
Repartee wrote:
.... snip.... I took "piling" to be what happens when one type bar does not get out of the way of the next in time,.... snip ....
What you are describing here is what the community calls clashing or, more commonly, jamming.
It always impresses me that any topic at all, when you start to really get into it, is a lot more complex that you ever imagined. I suppose that's because the topics were developed and enhanced by tens of thousands of people over decades or centuries and you're just one guy with four score and ten years available. And other interests besides. I note that the last Renaissance Man lived before typewriters were invented.
- SoucekFan
- Speed Champion
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- Registered: 27-12-2015
- Posts: 487
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
It can happen anywhere on the line, although it would be more likely to occur at the end of the line due to less tension on the carriage. I believe crowding is another term for piling. I think M. Hohne is correct in the describing the typist induced cause as "outrunning the escapement." One does not need to be a fast typist to outrun the escapement, as it is the speed between two strokes. It usually occurs on keystrokes on alternating hand combinations, as the stroke speed for this to happen on a good, well maintained machine is just a hair shy of clashing the type bars.
In the rules section of my typing contest rule book from the early 30's, "piling" is one of the things that is defined and listed as a deductible error, and the contestants were highly trained, and many were company sponsored with top of the line machines.
It can also be due to mechanical issues, as the issue is also addressed in the typing repair manuals.
- Repartee
- Key Master
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- From: Brooklyn
- Registered: 12-10-2015
- Posts: 683
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
I have also seen crowding IRL. I have gotten so good at certain combinations, like "th" that I sometimes outrun the escapement. But at least in that case, like Jimmy Buffet says, It's my own damn fault.
I think we can blame the computer keyboard for this skill. if you hit the "h" after the "t" by only one millisecond that's likely enough for electronics to resolve the ordering, but even the most agile mechanism will require more time. Unless it's an IBM Selectric! I read a description of the sequence of actions on striking a key which of course I could not follow totally nor am I sure I want to, but effectively there was some short term mechanical memory which allowed striking a second key while the actions from the first were still in process. Well there is even a little of this on a manual typewriter: Nothing stops you from starting the next stroke while the first type bar is flying through the air, so long as the deck is clear when the second approaches the paper.
Regarding Renaissance Man -- agreed -- but I find the flip side is that people whose experience is restricted to one field feel that everything they have learned in connection with that field is something unique to the field that you could not possibly understand without specialization, which mainly reflects their own narrow experience.
"Damn the torpedoes! Four bells, Captain Drayton".
- M. Höhne
- Key Master
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- From: Maine
- Registered: 14-3-2013
- Posts: 637
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
.... snip ..... I believe crowding is another term for piling. .... snip .....
Please, no. Crowding and piling are two different things, with different causes, and that's why they have two different names. See the Post #29 in this thread that ztyper worked so diligently to find for us to make this clear. You may believe that crowding is another term for piling but then you won't be able to communicate well with the rest of us. Just a few minutes ago we had another such confusion with a guy saying "piling" when the condition he wanted us to explain was "jamming". If we ignore established terminology, we end up spinning our wheels while we try to chase wild geese.
- ztyper
- Key Master
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- From: Somewhere in New Jersey
- Registered: 01-10-2014
- Posts: 773
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
See the Post #29 in this thread that ztyper worked so diligently to find for us to make this clear
Aw shucks 
, I don't see it as work, for you know what the say: if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life
A high schooler with a lot of typewriters. That's pretty much about it.
- SoucekFan
- Speed Champion
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- From: United States
- Registered: 27-12-2015
- Posts: 487
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
.... snip ..... I believe crowding is another term for piling. .... snip .....
Please, no. Crowding and piling are two different things, with different causes, and that's why they have two different names. See the Post #29 in this thread that ztyper worked so diligently to find for us to make this clear. You may believe that crowding is another term for piling but then you won't be able to communicate well with the rest of us. Just a few minutes ago we had another such confusion with a guy saying "piling" when the condition he wanted us to explain was "jamming". If we ignore established terminology, we end up spinning our wheels while we try to chase wild geese.
Sorry, I somehow missed his post in the bunch--when I hit "go to new posts" it skipped one post ahead of his. In my source (typing contest rule book), they did use "piling" for both issues, but I see the utility in having a separate definition for both, and his source is more comprehensive, so I will use the definition Ztyper provided; I do appreciate the clarity he added.
- Fleetwing
- Typewriter Talk Vet
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- From: Hartford, CT USA
- Registered: 30-6-2015
- Posts: 1,011
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
Yes, crowding is the correct term for what I am referring to. And as I said up above, I find Royals, especially the portables, to tend to do this more than other brands. That is to say, they're less forgiving of my sloppy technique than other makes. Purely anecdotal -- two recent acquisitions, a late '40s Smith-Corona Clipper (with the seaplane logo) and a Remington All New Portable seem essentially immune from this issue.
All the same, today I am off to buy a first version, so-called "tuxedo" color scheme Dreyfus-design Royal QDL.
- beak
- Key Master
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- From: Qld Australia
- Registered: 24-3-2013
- Posts: 912
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
If that's what 'piling' is (overprinting one letter over another) I should think it impossible on any decently made machine which is in good order.
It's perfectly normal and happens all the time on well-maintained typewriters that do not have an end-of-line lock when the typist ignores the bell (and some typewriters do not even have bells) and keeps typing at the right margin.
I guess that would only be 'antique' machines? I don't have anything that old, so have never experienced the phenomenon, and all mine have the necessary stops - that's why I assumed it could only result from a fault.
Sincerely,
beak.
- M. Höhne
- Key Master
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- From: Maine
- Registered: 14-3-2013
- Posts: 637
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
Here's a bit of relevant philosophy:
I know I try to live by it! Spread the word.
- Repartee
- Key Master
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- From: Brooklyn
- Registered: 12-10-2015
- Posts: 683
Re: In praise (yet again) of the Royal FP
Just a few minutes ago we had another such confusion with a guy saying "piling" when the condition he wanted us to explain was "jamming". If we ignore established terminology, we end up spinning our wheels while we try to chase wild geese.
Sir, that other guy also just wrote just minutes ago:
I thought I knew better but some things, like the fact that a person who has difficulty evaluating evidence can be completely convinced by hearsay and convince you too, it's not easy to be permanently wary of. Here I forgot the danger of assuming all understand the same thing by a word
I don't see how I could have made a handsomer acknowledgement of this momentary intellectual slip, something which has never happened to anybody else on this august forum at any time, so I would seem to be blameless? If I persisted in arguing that the word meant what I had thought it had meant then I would be blameworthy but I did not. 
Momentary confusion over the use of words is part of the human condition and only the person who insists that he is in touch with some Platonic store of meaning and refuses to adjust is guilty of serious error -- along with a person who believes that an error free condition is something achievable or even desirable in informal discourse? I am sure that's not you?
I find your repeating my freely admitted example of a momentary lapse in the prosecutorial standards of a district attorney as an example of bad behavior more than a little rude and insulting. You would not like to be on the receiving end of this behavior I think.
"Damn the torpedoes! Four bells, Captain Drayton".
