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23-6-2015 16:29:23  #11


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

I can explain what 'motion' means.  It is actually 'shift motion'.  In other words, the segment on your Olympia SG1 will travel 7.6mm between lower case and upper case.  When it was possible to order typeface, it was important to quote the 'motion' to ensure that you would get a typeface (slug) that matched the machine you were going to fit it to.

 

23-6-2015 18:18:47  #12


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

Ah! That's brilliant, thanks Tom. It all makes sense now, and it also explains why I've seen the specification listed in typeface manufacturers' catalogues. I just measured  the deflection of an SG1's segment and sure enough it's around 7.6 mm using a plain ruler. However, I now have to wonder why Olympia saw it necessary to actually stamp that information on the segment cover plate? I'm hard pressed to recall other typewriters that had the meansurement clearly labelled on them somewhere.Could it be that Olympia also produced an SG1 with a different shift distance and needed to differentiate the two?


Stay Safe! 
 

24-6-2015 12:03:56  #13


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

1. I assumed that Royal manufactured its own slugs, but do you know for how many years the company produced its own slugs or where they were actually manufactured? 

I do not know the answer to this question, but all the machines I worked on built before 1953 in the US or Canada had Royal typefaces. After 1953 Royal started to build Typewriters in Holland and use Ransmayer type on these machines. 

2. Was it normal for slugs to be made in the same factory alongside the other parts of the machine? 

I am sorry but I do not know much about the manufacturing process but I do know that like other makers parts were bought in from small parts manufacturers . 

3. Why would Royal use German-made slugs for machines built in Holland, and its own slugs for those made in North America. 

It could have been cost or ease of manufacture. Ransmayer type had a serif on the top of the type face and if you used their type jig there was a slot that the serif doped into and guaranteed perfect alignment even when using inexperienced workforce. The workforce in Canada were more highly skilled then in Holland and that showed up in the final product. Royal were also trying to get into the German market and as Adler were using Ransmayer type, so having the same type styles put them into a better position to compete with them. 

4. Can you explain the term "motion"? 

This is the distance between the upper case and lower case characters on a type face and therefore the distance the segment moves (the motion) up and down. 

The reason for different lengths of motion was that the larger the diameter of the platen the longer the motion. Using short motion type on a large diameter platen would cause lower part of the upper case character appearing above the lower case character and vice versa. 

Ransmayer made type there own type styles in the following motions 6.6mm 7.6mm and 8.5mm. 

Some languages like Greek and Arabic were made in 7.73.mm, 7,25 and 8.0 mm 

Royal, IBM and Corona own type styles were made in 6.73mm 

Remington own type styles were made in 6.65mm

Imperial and L.C. Smith own type styles were made in 7.62mm 

In the centre between the characters on the type face of Ransmayer type were ® and the type style number for Ra type and AR and type style number for Ro type. 

The proper name for this type manufacturer was RARO-TYPE but at Royal we always referred to it as Ransmayer type. 

ERROR ERROR ERROR in last posting 
FPS could have 5, 10,12,16 and 20 pitch and almost any type face. 

5 pitch any typeface requited by the customer 

SHOULD READ
FPS could have 6, 10,12,16 and 20 pitch and almost any type face. 

6 pitch any typeface requited by the customer

SORRY FOR THE MISTAKE
 

Last edited by dukedford (24-6-2015 12:11:20)

 

25-6-2015 00:12:07  #14


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

dukedford wrote:

all the machines I worked on built before 1953 in the US or Canada had Royal typefaces. After 1953 Royal started to build Typewriters in Holland and use Ransmayer type on these machines.  

Your information corroborates what I've read about Royal's history, specifically that the company opened its factory in Holland in 1953. Considering that Royal also merged with McBee the following year, it's understandable that that was a period of many changes including those in the established manufacturing process.

dukedford wrote:

I do know that like other makers parts were bought in from small parts manufacturers 

It's interesting to learn that Royal - and other manufacturers - sub-contracted the manufacture of certain parts. Do you recall specific examples of which parts were made in house as opposed to being outsourced? 

dukedford wrote:

Royal were also trying to get into the German market and as Adler were using Ransmayer type, so having the same type styles put them into a better position to compete with them. 

This perspective is fascinating to read. And its ironic given that Royal under Litton ended up buying Adler in 16 years later. I've not read much that has put European manufacturers into perspective in terms of market share, but I had always assumed that Olympia was the big dog, perhaps not as early as '53, but certainly by the '60s. Do you recall which manufacturer Royal considered to be its biggest competition in the European market? 

dukedford wrote:

SORRY FOR THE MISTAKE 

There's certainly no need to apologize! I for one am deeply appreciative of the knowledge and experience that you're sharing with us!


Stay Safe! 
 

27-6-2015 10:36:06  #15


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

Interesting for an amateur history buff.  Where are did you two find that out? 

Following might be FAQ from someone who used to work at a printshop.  If  found elsewhere please redirect.

I'd always assumed picas was unit of measurement.  (e.g. letter size paper = about 51 x 66 picas, etc.)

But the typeface also seems to be called "Pica" on a 1923 standard size and a 1936 portable machine. 

That doesn't make sense to me because the units of measurement or scale on the 1923 machine doesn't seem to be in either points or picas. 

I'm trying to force typewriters into a measurement system they didn't use?

From an old pica pole:

1923 machine looks like 6 point (.6 picas) with a lead of 12 and character spacing at .6 pica or 6 points.

1936 machine does seem standardized.  5 point typeface ; leading = 11 ; character spacing = .5 pica or 5 points.

Probably not articulating that very well.  If doesn't make sense, never mind.  Maybe typesetting & typewriters = apples & oranges.

Brian 
 

Last edited by BrianE (27-6-2015 10:39:35)

 

27-6-2015 14:31:41  #16


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

Uwe wrote:

It's interesting to learn that Royal - and other manufacturers - sub-contracted the manufacture of certain parts. Do you recall specific examples of which parts were made in house as opposed to being outsourced?

I can relate one example that went wrong. Royal Holland around 1961 started to bye Ratchet Cups from a company called Typewriter Sundries Ltd (own by OEM the people who later bought the Royal Imperial typewriter division from Litton). How ever these ratchet cups were not hardened properly so serrations on the inside of the cup after a few hours of use would just wear away. The test we made was to hold the line space lever in the ratchet and turn the right hand platen knob this would would smooth the inside of the cup. Now this is were the fun stars new cups were shipped to Holland from the UK to be fitted in new machines and sent to the UK. We would take them out and ship the faulty cups to Holland and thy would then ship them back to to Typewriter Sundries the UK for replacement.
The way Royal UK got over this problem was to get a supply of ratchet cups from Canada until the factory sorted out the mess thy had made.

Uwe wrote:

This perspective is fascinating to read. And its ironic given that Royal under Litton ended up buying Adler in 16 years later. I've not read much that has put European manufacturers into perspective in terms of market share, but I had always assumed that Olympia was the big dog, perhaps not as early as '53, but certainly by the '60s. Do you recall which manufacturer Royal considered to be its biggest competition in the European market?

I am so so sure about the European market but in the UK Olivetti, Olympia, Adler, Imperial, Smith Corona, Underwood and IBM were all typewriter market and Royal always considered that the service department was a very important to their sales effort having the following slogan for the service department.

Can Royal Win Sales Through Better Mechanics, Repairing and Servicing? Certainly!

BrianE wrote:

I'm trying to force typewriters into a measurement system they didn't use?

Yes so I will explain
Fist of all Pica is a type style made in 10 pitchTypewriters measure pitch by the inch 10 pitch 10 spaces to the inch
12 pitch 12 spaces to the inch
6 pitch 6 spaces to the inch.
So the higher the number the smaller the type and higher the pitch.
The print measure the size of the type to determine pitch.
This means that the higher the number the larger the type and smaller the pitch.

Something you can try on your word processor
Type 12 letter 'H' in 10 pitch and this will measure an inch.
Type 10 letter 'H' in 12 pitch and this will measure an inch.

This is because printers use the print system to determine the type face and pitch..

On a typewriter it will be the other way round.  
 

Last edited by Uwe (27-6-2015 16:11:05)

 

28-6-2015 11:04:00  #17


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

dukedford wrote:

Yes so I will explain
Fist of all Pica is a type style made in 10 pitch Typewriters measure pitch by the inch 10 pitch 10 spaces to the inch
12 pitch 12 spaces to the inch
6 pitch 6 spaces to the inch.
So the higher the number the smaller the type and higher the pitch.
The print measure the size of the type to determine pitch.
This means that the higher the number the larger the type and smaller the pitch.

Something you can try on your word processor
Type 12 letter 'H' in 10 pitch and this will measure an inch.
Type 10 letter 'H' in 12 pitch and this will measure an inch.

This is because printers use the print system to determine the type face and pitch..

On a typewriter it will be the other way round.  
 

Had never heard the term 'pitch' outside music or tapedecks.  Thanks for clearing that up for me!

Figured it might have something to do with the length of the platen.  (One is 10" while the other's is a bit over 9")

So the 'correct' way to describe (or ask about) typewriters might be:

Royal #10 in ten pitch with 'Pica' typeface
De Luxe in 12 pitch with 'Pica' typeface.

One last question about spacing & typefaces then.

Did Royal (or any other company) ever make a portable in an easier to read (larger) ten pitch size?

In particular I'm curious about a model called the "Diana" for no other reason than it would already be personalized with someone's name on it. ; )

best
Brian 

Last edited by BrianE (28-6-2015 11:08:05)

 

28-6-2015 13:34:07  #18


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

BrianE wrote:

Figured it might have something to do with the length of the platen.  (One is 10" while the other's is a bit over 9")

The platen length does not have anything to do with the typeface pitch. You can have a typewriter with a 10 inch platen fitted with either elite or pica size typeface. The typeface size was an something the buyer decided on. Some machines more than others offered a larger variety of sizes and typefaces, but most were available in either elite or pica.


BrianE wrote:

So the 'correct' way to describe (or ask about) typewriters might be: Royal #10 in ten pitch with 'Pica' typeface

Not quite. "Pica" already denotes a 10-pitch typeface, so you would either say a Royal Futura fitted with pica type, or, a Royal Futura with 10-pitch type, not both. Similarly, you could either use elite or 12-pitch for that size typeface. However, if you want to be really specific I would  use the pitch number as there were subtle variations to the pica and elite terms. For example, I believe the elite that Olympia used was 11-pitch. 


BrianE wrote:

Did Royal (or any other company) ever make a portable in an easier to read (larger) ten pitch size?

Yes. Extremely common. I have plenty of portable machines fitted with 10-pitch type, and larger. If you search this forum you should be able to find a few threads with Smith-Corona Classic 12 models that were fitted with 6-pitch type.

BrianE wrote:

In particular I'm curious about a model called the "Diana" for no other reason than it would already be personalized with someone's name on it.

The Royal Diana was a late '50s portable that was manufactured in Holland, so if you want one it's usually easier to find them on European eBay sites than North American ones. There is currently one for sale that's located in California.


Stay Safe! 
 

28-6-2015 16:04:05  #19


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

BrianE wrote:

Had never heard the term 'pitch' outside music or tapedecks.  Thanks for clearing that up for me!
 

In mechanics, pitch is the distance from one feature to the next on the part you are talking about, as from the center of one gear tooth to the center of the next tooth or the distance from one thread to the next on a screw. Alternatively, pitch is the number of such features that occur in a given distance--basically they convey the same information.

So the distance between characters or the number of characters in an inch, and in typewriters the latter number is the convention.

Note that a distance measurement is required in addition to the feature count, but in many cases that distance is understood or implied, as when we say 10-pitch instead of 10 characters per inch.

BTW, you have probably heard of "pitch" in baseball? Look up "pitch" in Wkikpedia and you'll find a couple dozen usages in different fields, as well as a more complete explanation than mine.

Have Fun!

 

29-6-2015 18:36:38  #20


Re: What's The Difference? Understanding my fonts...

Sorry if slow on the uptake.  Pica as a typeface name seems confusing.  Unless I'm mistaken both machines have that as their typeface and yet one is 10 and the other is 12 'pitch.'

So saying the following still redundant?
Royal #10 10CPI (pica)
Royal De Luxe 12CPI (pica)

Characters per inch might be helpful.  Easier way of asking sellers about slug size.

"If you draw a line one inch long, how many characters or spaces can you type below it?"

Asking about pitch might indeed have someone replying "curveball..." ; )

One last question on mechanics if it doesn't take us off topic too much.

Quick search turned up Smith Corona with a 'jeweled escapement.'  Marketing or design improvement?

(Search only turned up machines for sale, mentioned it in passing, etc.)

Thanks

Brian

 

 

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