Ah! That's brilliant, thanks Tom. It all makes sense now, and it also explains why I've seen the specification listed in typeface manufacturers' catalogues. I just measured  the deflection of an SG1's segment and sure enough it's around 7.6 mm using a plain ruler. However, I now have to wonder why Olympia saw it necessary to actually stamp that information on the segment cover plate? I'm hard pressed to recall other typewriters that had the meansurement clearly labelled on them somewhere.Could it be that Olympia also produced an SG1 with a different shift distance and needed to differentiate the two?

dukedford wrote:

all the machines I worked on built before 1953 in the US or Canada had Royal typefaces. After 1953 Royal started to build Typewriters in Holland and use Ransmayer type on these machines.  

Your information corroborates what I've read about Royal's history, specifically that the company opened its factory in Holland in 1953. Considering that Royal also merged with McBee the following year, it's understandable that that was a period of many changes including those in the established manufacturing process.

dukedford wrote:

I do know that like other makers parts were bought in from small parts manufacturers 

It's interesting to learn that Royal - and other manufacturers - sub-contracted the manufacture of certain parts. Do you recall specific examples of which parts were made in house as opposed to being outsourced? 

dukedford wrote:

Royal were also trying to get into the German market and as Adler were using Ransmayer type, so having the same type styles put them into a better position to compete with them. 

This perspective is fascinating to read. And its ironic given that Royal under Litton ended up buying Adler in 16 years later. I've not read much that has put European manufacturers into perspective in terms of market share, but I had always assumed that Olympia was the big dog, perhaps not as early as '53, but certainly by the '60s. Do you recall which manufacturer Royal considered to be its biggest competition in the European market? 

dukedford wrote:

SORRY FOR THE MISTAKE 

There's certainly no need to apologize! I for one am deeply appreciative of the knowledge and experience that you're sharing with us!

Uwe wrote:

It's interesting to learn that Royal - and other manufacturers - sub-contracted the manufacture of certain parts. Do you recall specific examples of which parts were made in house as opposed to being outsourced?

I can relate one example that went wrong. Royal Holland around 1961 started to bye Ratchet Cups from a company called Typewriter Sundries Ltd (own by OEM the people who later bought the Royal Imperial typewriter division from Litton). How ever these ratchet cups were not hardened properly so serrations on the inside of the cup after a few hours of use would just wear away. The test we made was to hold the line space lever in the ratchet and turn the right hand platen knob this would would smooth the inside of the cup. Now this is were the fun stars new cups were shipped to Holland from the UK to be fitted in new machines and sent to the UK. We would take them out and ship the faulty cups to Holland and thy would then ship them back to to Typewriter Sundries the UK for replacement.
The way Royal UK got over this problem was to get a supply of ratchet cups from Canada until the factory sorted out the mess thy had made.

Uwe wrote:

This perspective is fascinating to read. And its ironic given that Royal under Litton ended up buying Adler in 16 years later. I've not read much that has put European manufacturers into perspective in terms of market share, but I had always assumed that Olympia was the big dog, perhaps not as early as '53, but certainly by the '60s. Do you recall which manufacturer Royal considered to be its biggest competition in the European market?

I am so so sure about the European market but in the UK Olivetti, Olympia, Adler, Imperial, Smith Corona, Underwood and IBM were all typewriter market and Royal always considered that the service department was a very important to their sales effort having the following slogan for the service department.

Can Royal Win Sales Through Better Mechanics, Repairing and Servicing? Certainly!

BrianE wrote:

I'm trying to force typewriters into a measurement system they didn't use?

Yes so I will explain
Fist of all Pica is a type style made in 10 pitchTypewriters measure pitch by the inch 10 pitch 10 spaces to the inch
12 pitch 12 spaces to the inch
6 pitch 6 spaces to the inch.
So the higher the number the smaller the type and higher the pitch.
The print measure the size of the type to determine pitch.
This means that the higher the number the larger the type and smaller the pitch.

Something you can try on your word processor
Type 12 letter 'H' in 10 pitch and this will measure an inch.
Type 10 letter 'H' in 12 pitch and this will measure an inch.

This is because printers use the print system to determine the type face and pitch..

On a typewriter it will be the other way round.  
 

Last edited by Uwe (27-6-2015 16:11:05)

BrianE wrote:

Figured it might have something to do with the length of the platen.  (One is 10" while the other's is a bit over 9")

The platen length does not have anything to do with the typeface pitch. You can have a typewriter with a 10 inch platen fitted with either elite or pica size typeface. The typeface size was an something the buyer decided on. Some machines more than others offered a larger variety of sizes and typefaces, but most were available in either elite or pica.

BrianE wrote:

So the 'correct' way to describe (or ask about) typewriters might be: Royal #10 in ten pitch with 'Pica' typeface

Not quite. "Pica" already denotes a 10-pitch typeface, so you would either say a Royal Futura fitted with pica type, or, a Royal Futura with 10-pitch type, not both. Similarly, you could either use elite or 12-pitch for that size typeface. However, if you want to be really specific I would  use the pitch number as there were subtle variations to the pica and elite terms. For example, I believe the elite that Olympia used was 11-pitch. 

BrianE wrote:

Did Royal (or any other company) ever make a portable in an easier to read (larger) ten pitch size?

Yes. Extremely common. I have plenty of portable machines fitted with 10-pitch type, and larger. If you search this forum you should be able to find a few threads with Smith-Corona Classic 12 models that were fitted with 6-pitch type.

BrianE wrote:

In particular I'm curious about a model called the "Diana" for no other reason than it would already be personalized with someone's name on it.

The Royal Diana was a late '50s portable that was manufactured in Holland, so if you want one it's usually easier to find them on European eBay sites than North American ones. There is currently one for sale that's located in California.

Sorry if slow on the uptake.  Pica as a typeface name seems confusing.  Unless I'm mistaken both machines have that as their typeface and yet one is 10 and the other is 12 'pitch.'

So saying the following still redundant?
Royal #10 10CPI (pica)
Royal De Luxe 12CPI (pica)

Characters per inch might be helpful.  Easier way of asking sellers about slug size.

"If you draw a line one inch long, how many characters or spaces can you type below it?"

Asking about pitch might indeed have someone replying "curveball..." ; )

One last question on mechanics if it doesn't take us off topic too much.

Quick search turned up Smith Corona with a 'jeweled escapement.'  Marketing or design improvement?

(Search only turned up machines for sale, mentioned it in passing, etc.)

Thanks

Brian